Asian tooling: Do you know what you're getting?
By Clare Goldsberry
Published: January 31st, 2011
Published: January 31st, 2011
While OEMs continue to push their molders and moldmakers to buy tooling from Asian sources, some in the moldmaking industry have found that it just doesn’t pay.
When OEMs ask Industrial Molds Group (Rockford, IL) to explore Asian sources for tooling, telling Tim Peterson that the molds are "the same" as those Industrial Molds builds, Peterson knows first-hand that's just not true. Recently, he had a customer bring in a Chinese-made mold in which the core had broken. The core had been spec'd to be made of P-20 steel, yet after only four months of running production volume, it broke.
"That just didn't seem possible," says Peterson, who is VP of Industrial Molds. "The first thing we did was to send a sample of the core to Atrona Material Testing Laboratory to be evaluated with an optical emission spectrometer to perform the chemistry in accordance with ASTM E415."
The result was that the sample was found to be similar to SAE 4140 low-alloy steel. Testing also showed that the core material had a slightly elevated silicon level and a slightly lower molybdenum level. Those numbers are consistent with 4140.
Ron Cincinnati, president of Industrial Molds vendor Cincinnati Steel, said it was hard for him to judge the steel, as there's not a huge gap between P-20 and 4140, only about 0.1%. "Granted, it's not exactly the same, but it's not that great of a difference and most people wouldn't catch it unless someone really digs into it like Tim did," says Cincinnati. "The point is that the steel isn't what it was purported to be."
Peterson says sometimes his customers will say, "It's Chinese P-20," which "somehow is supposed to be the same as U.S. P-20. But let's face it, rarely is the mold built in Asia the exact equivalent of a mold from Industrial Molds," he states. "We get files from the Asian shops that build these molds, and we know they do things differently in China. But P-20 should be just what it's supposed to be, no matter where in the world you get a mold."
The hardness was 24 Rockwell C, not quite as hard as P-20. Standard P-20 runs 28-32 Rockwell C. "Besides getting the price advantage of about 18%, the 4140 machines faster and the polishing will be easier," notes Peterson. "All the things that go into making this mold were faster. So the customer got this mold for a cheaper price."
But what was lost in this deal? "The customer loses longevity," says Peterson. "We're currently working on getting certifications from customers proving the tool steel is what they say it is."
Protecting your IP
Progressive Components, a mold components supplier to Industrial Molds, had problems at one time with the Chinese stealing its intellectual property. Glenn Starkey, president of Progressive Components, says that in some cases, the components were even etched and placed in a box with Progressive's name and logo on it. "We've cycle tested these components and found that they were inferior and failed at a very early point," Starkey explains.
Progressive has taken steps to prevent this, including "vigorous legal action." In some cases, infringing actions have ceased. "This has created a word-on-the-street buzz that may thwart other [activity of this nature]," says Starkey, who explains that this is one of the reasons the company does not have components coming to the United States from China. "Our concern would be that, even if we were working with a reputable company, there could be someone within their team who leaves the company and knows how to manufacture a copy of our components."
Peterson says that if U.S. moldmakers started doing what the Chinese do to be competitive-i.e., using less hard tool steel, skimping on components and other things-"We'd be more competitive too. There's a double standard for mold suppliers at some OEMs. We're held to a higher standard of mold build than the Chinese. If we'd built a mold in which a core broke four months into high-volume production, we'd never hear the end of it."
Currently there's about a 10%-15% differential in pricing between Industrial Molds' quotes and those from China. "I don't think that using Chinese tooling sources is that good of a deal for U.S. moldmakers or molders. Often, OEMs will push these substandard molds off on U.S. molders, and then wonder why their part prices are higher-why they can't get the cycle times they thought they could get, or why the tool life is shorter," Peterson explains.
Peterson believes that molds coming from offshore are certainly not good for U.S. OEMs and not good for U.S. manufacturing in general. "We need to retain our intellectual property, maintain the skilled workforce that we've developed," he says. "Washington wants to know where the jobs are and how to create jobs. It's all of us working together to bring work back to the U.S.—to support the reshoring initiative's efforts—to create more jobs in the U.S." —Clare Goldsberry
Often i tell my customers the
Often i tell my customers the word "value" not "price".
you need to put all necessary efforts to source for good quality mold and part from low cost countries,not only China.
What i notice is that most failures are from the failure of communication.
Tell them what you truely want and expect, propose a reasonable price, or even a little bit higher than the market price, they will be pleased to put your work as a priority ad treat the work as an art job.
Each company seeks for longevity, so of course they care as much as you care.
More than just mold and molding
Lets be Honest, if you can
Lets be Honest, if you can get a product for cheaper, most of us would take the lower price.
As a USA mold builder that was what our customers wanted. It took us about two years and alot of testing, but we found a chinese mold builder that provides us with tools that meet all our specs and high quality standards which include steel specs for P-20. Because we did the leg work and put in the time to make this work, we now have a good supplier of quality molds. Our experience has shown us that there is alot of potential problems having tools made overseas but if you want to make it work you have to put the effort into it.
KKuhlman@westools.com
I spent 2 Years to find out
I spent 2 Years to find out good Toolmakers in China
There are no doubts that considering 100 Chinese toolmakers , only five or six are able to meet Westerns standards . For that reasons I spent 2 years in selecting Toolmakers , test them with simple project , verify the final total quality characteristics of their molds , including steel used ( requesting that all mold must be delivered with clear certification ) .
It was the duty that my Company ( Automotive fields ) gave to me to continue to be competitive with our Customer when submitting our quotations .
In fact there are no doubts again that OEM , ask to us to reduce costs every year and for every new Programs.
Now We have at least 3 Preferred toolmakers , able to design and build Molds according to our specification with a price we define together with them ( generally 25-30% cheap that comparable Toolmakers in US or EU ).
I do not believe that market protectionism could be the solution , I never did.
I believe we have to be smarter then they think : using our experience and out working method we have to make a selection in that market , and eventually helping also who we believe in to grow . This will be a solution even for many of our toolmaker that can create new job not in a low value jobs ( operators 0 but in the high skilled jobs ( designers )
Think about it
Felice
Let’s face the facts; China
Let’s face the facts; China and Chinese mold makers are not going to go out of existence. The decision makers, CEO, accountants, CFO alike are not going to spend a dime more than they think they should for any tooling. There are plenty of mold making companies ranging good to bad and in between domestically and aboard.
The Chinese are latest in the crowd of low cost mold makers. In the beginning it was the Japanese, and then it was the Korean, then the Taiwanese that offer lower cost tooling. Mixed in where the mold makers from Spain, Portugal, Italy, England, Germany, Denmark and many other countries from around the world. Who will be next is uncertain but they will arrive at our doorsteps soon.
The bottom line is that the decision to purchase a lower cost tool is made here in the US. As with any consumer we face challenges and decisions when planning a purchase regardless of the product. Knowledge and understand or the lack, of the product will guide the consumer to their final decision. Not all decisions are based on price alone. Lack of quality or integrity is not a feature desired by any intelligent buyer. The difference and challenge is for a quality mold maker to articulate quality and integrity within their product. If the consumer wants to understand what they are receiving in exchange money they will listen. If not, move on, any party that bases the final decision on price alone is not interested in quality, period.
Knowledge is the power to make a sound decision defendable from any question. In those famous words, "Success has many fathers, but failure is an orphan." If we are to succeed then you had better prepare to educate the consumer what they are getting in exchange for their money. Articulate the facts and educate your consumer. If the buyer makes a decision to go elsewhere ask why, the answer should not be because of a lack of quality or integrity. Don’t over or under sell the consumer, deliver a competitive bid with the correct features and quality they are shopping for.
I get into trouble when I say
I get into trouble when I say what you write! (Not P.C).
I agree with much of the blog, but you can also get inferior molds in many countries, including the good ol" USA!
An injection mold is a big investment, often costing as much or more than a car. One should foster a good relationship with a reputable mold maker,who backs his/her's work, and not buy on price alone. If the mold doesn't produce, then even if it cost a dime, it is useless.
"Keep on Molding!"
brent
brentb@matrixtooling.com
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